Another thought that was planted when I called Mariano Rivera the greatest pitcher ever...
I'd say baseball is romanticized a little more than any other sport, in that players from the distant past are held in the highest regard compared to today. For instance, you can't find many people who would say that George Mikan would dominate, or even be the 12th man on the bench, in today's NBA. Likewise, you can't find many that would say Red Grange would be a great contemporary NFL player.
However, if you talk to enough baseball fans, you'll run into a decent amount of people who say Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb, or Cy Young was the greatest baseball player ever. I think that claim would be laughable, especially given the level of competition they played against. But I mention it to set up my point that sports evolve, and generally the people playing them today are the most athletically gifted, best trained, and (sadly), some are the most chemically enhanced.
A dominant center is no longer 6'7", and offensive and defensive linemen in the NFL are no longer 250 LBs, the way they were 50 years ago. Baseball isn't quite as size-related, but players are bigger and stronger than ever - though again, some chemically enhanced. Giving the players of the past access to today's knowledge about nutrition and training would be a different story...but arguing that you could bring them into today's game as they were, and saying that they could compete, is again, laughable. Another example I like to think of in terms of comparing eras: Imagine Bob Cousy running around in today's NBA with his chest-high, one-armed dribble. He'd be robbed more than...well I'm lazy with metaphors today, but I'm thinking of something to do with the seedy parts of Detroit, or Mesa. Hey, I never claimed to be Dennis Miller.
Back to baseball, I give a genuine nod to Pedro Martinez in his relatively short yet incredible prime years, as being among the best ever. Sandy Koufax was also remarkable for a short burst - but with his career finishing over 40 years ago, we again can run into era comparison problems. Though at least he played his entire career post-integration, so at least we're getting closer. I'm still not sure exactly where to draw the "modern era" line, but I'm thinking the past 25 years is a good time frame in which you can safely compare players, in all three sports. I think Bird, Magic, and obviously Jordan, could still be great in today's NBA. Walter Payton would still be the best running back in this era, and Lawrence Taylor the best linebacker. And Jamie Moyer, Ken Griffey Jr., and Randy Johnson could still play in the major leagues today. (Wait, bad example, those three are still playing today.)
Anyway, I do believe that in all major sports we are currently seeing the best athletes ever. So I can safely say, overall, give me Rivera...anytime.
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4 comments:
I agree 100%. Babe Ruth wouldn't be a AAA player today.
Bill...
Please...George Mikan? How about Wilt Chamberlain. Wilt or Kareem in their primes probably could still go in the NBA...but if you're going to dig up crusty old white dudes...of course most still couldn't go. Bird in his prime...maybe because the dude could shoot...or pistol Pete because he had a handle...but most white guys now stink unless they're European. Sorry Birdman fans...he's a 6th man at best and you all know it.
Jim Brown in his prime was a solid running back.
I also think it's an insult you talk about 3 sports and completely slam hockey. Others do this too...and I think it's a joke. Hockey SHOULD be a major sport. It's not what the other 3 are...but at times it certainly has been. The west coast has the worst bias against it too due to a lack of teams. And Hockey's perhaps the best example where old dudes would still tear it up. Howe...Abel...Hull (Bobby...not Bret)...Orr...and I actually believe if Gretzky wanted to go he could still semi compete today.
- Joe -
Thanks for your thoughts and insight Joe. I have nothing against hockey at all. While I can't personally say it grabs me, I know it has a hardcore following. I respect the men who play it - I've especially noticed how few hockey players run afoul of the law compared to football, basketball, and baseball. And I was genuinely happy that Pittsburgh won the Stanley Cup. However, I just wouldn't want to pretend I'm an expert and make any claims about the evolution of the game, the way I could about the three sports I follow more closely. And if I can nit-pick one other thing: going by ratings, hockey would be the fifth major sport, not fourth, as NASCAR also surpasses it in ratings. But that's only if you want to call NASCAR a sport.
Moving back to other sports, I liked the examples you brought up, as they are more of a challenge than the easy-target, old-time white guys I used. Here are my thoughts on some of those guys.
Wilt Chamberlain was simply a monster. He'd be perfect for today's NBA. In fact, you could say he *invented* today's game. Obviously I've never seen him play, but anyone that big and strong, who averaged 50 points and 25 rebounds for an entire SEASON, is awesome. I think he's Shaq with even better athleticism.
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar to me looked like a soft, finesse big man, whom I feel would be a slower, less athletic Chris Bosh in this era. I never respected him and feel he's the most overrated player of all time. How can the all-time leading scorer in a league be overrated? Well he did play like 53 years in the league to get that record so that's something. I just don't like him.
Jim Brown seems like a good exception to my claims, since he played 50 years ago. According to pro-football-reference.com, he was 6'2", 232, that's a good-sized power back even now. But most men he ran over, were smaller than he was, and sold insurance in the offseason. Also, Brown fumbled 57 times over his 9 year career (in 14 game schedules)! I wonder how many fumbles that would be with the kind of hits he'd absorb today. Verdict: Comparable to former Titans star Eddie George, or maybe a smaller Brandon Jacobs with a little more elusiveness but a case of the dropsies.
Bill,
I love it. I love it so much I just used a comma as opposed to ellipses for the first time in years!
A few quick hitters...
I do think NASCAR's a sport...my only problem with it's ratings is it's on once a week tops if you just go with the Sprint/Nextel cup series...if the NHL had those outdoor games on a weekly basis they'd be packed to the gills too.
It's also a very different sort of sport. Hockey's got a ton more venues to support, etc. NASCAR's got one venue a week...I think so see my point here.
I like that you respect my examples back...they were pretty much off the top of my head...I'm not really a stat geek...though I use them and think about them when necessary...I tend to become enamored with the player and look for the stats later to back up their awesomeness. I also think stats to some degree can be stretched to make just about anyone seem great at something.
Bobby Higginson for example...well no sadly he sucked at everything save one year which he parlayed into a contract for years of suckiness with the Tigers.
All I'll say about Kareem to be a counterpoint to your slams would be the guy invented the sky hook...and it saddens me (truly) more players don't realize just what an unstoppable shot it was/is. Every time a guy has a shot rejected in the lane I think sky hook. It's true...it's damn true.
- Joe -
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